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It's simply not true that false claims on the Internet are behind distrust in the vaccine program. In the real world, it's caused by too many sick children no one can explain and more and more courageous experts standing up to the pharmaceutical industry's hold on our children's health. It's true. Parents do read these books. It's also true that they read the Internet, where it is almost impossible not to come across antivaccine websites if you do a little searching for information on vaccines.

These books, as well as antivaccine websites, are chock full of misinformation, pseudoscience, and quackery designed to demonize vaccines as the cause of all health problems. Even if Dachel's assessment that there is an "epidemic" of autism were correct it's not , that wouldn't mean that vaccines caused it.

If there is a huge increase in the number of children with obesity, diabetes, asthma, and other health problems, it wouldn't mean that vaccines caused it. There are so many other things that have occurred in the last 30 years that could plausibly be part of the reason why there have been increases in various health conditions. However, none of that matters to Dachel.

To antivaccine cranks like Dachel, it is, first and foremost, always about the vaccines. Any health-related issue among children will be seen through the prism of her antivaccine views, and she will try to find a way to relate it to vaccines. Because to the antivaccinationist, vaccines are the root of all evil and must be stopped.

Their words might say otherwise with milquetoast caveats that "vaccines can save lives" but we're vaccinating just too much, but their actions say otherwise. Nothing--no evidence, no science, no data--can convince her or the other antivaccine cranks at AoA that vaccines are safe and effective and do not cause autism. To them, it really is a religious belief that is unfalsifiable.

Now that we've removed the layers of typical childhood diseases through the vaccine program measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, etc, etc, etc , plus improved medical care which has also reduced total infant mortality, we are seeing disabilities, chronic conditions, etc, that were always there, but not nearly as visible to the public. I argue we aren't seeing an increase in these "new" conditions, because they aren't new.

They were always there, either unrecognized, unreported, or just plain missed or in the past where high infant mortality was the norm, the kids never reached the age where these did present themselves. Boil it down to - if a child dies of TB or Pneumonia before showing signs of autism, they were still autistic, but no one ever got the chance to notice.

Lawrence, The way some the anti-ax crowd moan, they would look at death by TB as the preferred outcome. Astonishing really. Yes, Anne pines for the good old days of the 19th century, when children were given the good chance to die like God intended, before they could manifest any autism. Of course, Anne would probably say that autism didn't exist before vaccines were invented. WRT Jake's musings, might I suggest we start calling it "6 degrees of consternation"?

Or perhaps, since I imagine him turning red with the effort of trying to squeeze out so much illogic, "6 degrees of constipation"? I think you may have my new favorite blog. It's well researched and scientifically sound.

I found you because someone linked to you about Mayim Bialik on Slate. Anti-vaxxers, like alt med advocates, are increasingly pulling away from the mainstream: standard media are routinely vilified and abjured as being the work of the devil.

By going after well-regarded fellows like Mssrs Moyers and Cooper, they severely limit their appeal. Here's the problem: altho' these niches are limited, scads of them are popping up all over the net creating an archipelago of nonsense or a constellation of many points of dimness for the un-enlightened.

Thinking Moms Revolution; Canary Party et al. Woo-meisters the aforementioned outlets, NN and PRN similarly are reaching out to anti-vaxxers making for a large, happy, incestuously whimsy-based union of disease promotion and fear-mongering: AJW will appear PRN. David Lewis. If these are the good people, I'm so glad I'm a devil- the conversation's much better and the outlook is more realistic. Thanks for this. The growth of anti-science hysteria and bullying in all kinds of areas is very worrying.

Global warming, evolution, vaccines Last week, I got a note home from my kids' school that there was a whooping cough outbreak and I should watch my kids for symptoms. It's a school full of privileged, well-educated people in a wealthy suburb of a major city. Why is some kid getting whooping cough? That's the thing these people don't get. You can do perfectly good science with a conflict of interest - and good thing, too, as it's almost impossible to exist in the rarefied air of absolutely zero conflicts of interest anywhere in your life.

The point is to put your COI statement right out in the open, so that your science can be reviewed in the proper context - as most legit scientists do, as Wakers did not. Having one's entire identity and worldview completely tied up in the assumption that vaccines cause autism is much more of an incentive to distort data than mere grant money or speaking fees.

I showed this article to my dear friends questioning vaccines. They are wondering who has all the answers. Reasonable, intelligent folks, looking for help. If these vaccine safety advocates are so stupid, why is their movement growing and growing. A deeper look into their science shows credibility and integrity.

Most compelling? A 5th grader can figure out when someone turns the topic from viable, provable vaccine damage to the ravages of infectious disease that the argument has turned from factual debate to propaganda. One does not negate the other. Vaccine damage and infectious disease are two entirely different issues. To continue to combine them is a mark of intellectual weakness. I comment here only because Anne has done a remarkable job of maintaining her professionalism.

Her posts are well researched and infinitely helpful to so many. That you would conduct yourself in this manner in the company of such a respected advocate, is shameful. It's my sincere hope you can funnel this energy into developing a manner of communication that is respectful and diplomatic. You see friend, the glorious thing about the internet you so detest, is that it encourages thought. People otherwise thrilled to be told what to do are learning to think for themselves and question authority.

While you continue to reach your ever shrinking market of the "scientific elite", we will minister to the people. With scientific fact, solid data, and oh, yes! So very very sorry for you my friend. I know you believe with all your heart you are right.

Some days, when I read what you write, for your sake, I really want you to be. You are trying so so hard to keep it going. It's my sincere hope that you are capable of understanding the science. I know it's complicated. Hard to digest. The Chauhans - my goodness, that is some truly heady delving into the auto-immune implications of static vs.

Don't lose heart my friend. If a little mom like me with a medical dictionary and a telephone can figure it out - so can you! On a side note if you could take the hateful emotion out of your presentation, you could move mountains. It's really no wonder antivaxxers wallow in so much bitterness and hatred. Imagine having to come to terms with the fact that vaccines have been able to override God's omnipotence.

I discuss this statistic at One in 6 children with a developmental disability? The source is Boyle et al. Epub May Screening for and remediating learning disorders are my areas of expertise. I would say the one in six figure Dyslexia is classed as a developmental disability. The point is, we didn't evolve to read; some of us have neurological features that makes learning to read quite difficult without intensive, direct instruction.

Immunologists' knowledge about pertussis and the protection that the acellular vaccine is evolving. You don't say how old your children are. If they are approaching middle school, the immunity conferred by their infant vaccines may have worn off. The acellular formulation is safer than the old whole-cell vaccine, but at a cost: it's less effective in conferring immunity. Those are just two explanations, but if your state publishes vaccine-uptake rates for schools I live in California and the Dept of Ed does publish those data at school level you can find out if your school has a high vaccine uptake rate.

You mean like Andrew Wakefield who committed scientific fraud , Mark and David Geier who set up a dubious "institute" and, in a completely unethical move, chaired their own IRB to rubberstamp their human subjects research on projects involving chemical castration of autistic children , Rashid Buttar one of whose protocols involves urine injections , and Roy Kerry who killed an autistic boy with chelation therapy?

If that's what antivaccinationists view as "credibility and integrity" in science, I hate to see what you would consider fraud and quackery. As I just showed in this post, her posts are anything but well-researched. More than that or less than that, depending on how you want to look at it , they are incredibly misleading, which is not surprising given how proud she is of the efforts of herself and her fellow antivaccinationists in eroding confidence in the U.

Every study that comes out, she has to find a way to twist it into a pretzel of "evidence" supporting her belief that vaccines cause autism. In fact, Dachel is all about false "balance" when it comes to vaccine reporting. Actually, I love the Internet. Why else would I spend so much effort blogging? What you don't like is that the very Internet that allows cranks like Anne Dachel to spew their pseudoscience, misinformation, and cherry-picked data to slavering sycophants also allows me to refute their nonsense, as I did in this post.

I'm sorry. That was just so funny. I can't recall having seen a better example of the arrogance of ignorance in a very, very long time. They are slitting their own throats and only driving mainstream media away from them. Usually, each of these crank letters are reproduced in their entirety on AoA affiliated websites No wonder then, that the only interviews their editors and Dachel are able to generate, are with other crank hosts of other crank websites.

Anne Dachel? You must be reading a different Anne Dachel than the one I've seen. You see, the media editor for Age of Autism quite regularly trolls online news articles to drop turds of misinformation before running off elsewhere. I tried for a while to keep up with her, but I just don't have the time to do so. Much of what she says is easily refuted by anyone willing to put the effort into actually checking her facts.

BTW, if you consider Ms. Dachel to be a vaccine safety advocate, then, please, direct me to even one instance where she has stated that a vaccine is good and should be administered to kids. You'd have to ask them, but probably because Prof. Walker-Smith is retired and it really wouldn't be worth the cost to hold a new hearing. Also I think the use of the word "minister" within such close proximity to "scientific fact" undercuts your argument. One does not need to proselytize facts. Nor do you articulate what exactly is wrong with a scientific elite and instead use it as a pejorative.

I for one would like more of that particular class in existence. Also I suspect Orac is not confusing vaccine damage and infectious disease, but if anything pointing out that even if the evidence pointed to vaccines causing some of the claimed problems, which they clearly do not, it would still be preferable to lets say death.

This is one of the unfortunate cases where Othniel Charles Marsh, in a rush to beat rival Edward Drinker Cope in describing new species, named too many dinosaurs during the Bone Wars. He named Apatosaurus ajax in He named another, more complete sauropod Brontosaurus excelsus in ' In , Elmer Riggs realized that Apatosaurus and "Brontosaurus" were similar enough that they should be placed in the same genus.

Since Apatosaurus was named first, it get priority. Whether the species A. But everybody needs to stop saying "Brontosaurus. Prior to becoming a psychologist, yours truly studied economics at another elitist enclave, naturally. To supplement what I posted earlier - women are also bearing children at a more advanced age now into their 40's which has already shown to lead to an increased risk for Downs and other developmental issues. Why couldn't autism also fit into this as well - since this is occuring mostly in Western Countries where you also see the increased recognition of autism , this fits - and if you can show correlation between age of the mother vs.

I believe I've presented two very likely scenarios to explain the current increased recognition of autism - that was nothing to do with vaccines - and I continue to wonder, really, why these anti-vaxers are so stuck on the subject.

Science Mom: Lisa Goes has figured it out She is a "science journalist" at AoA and is also affiliated with the Canary Party:. There's already an established correlation between parental age and autism incidence. See for instance PMIDs , , and And that's just from the first 10 hits.

The movement is growing because there is a plentiful supply of people like you who think that the popularity of an idea among uneducated Oprah fans has any bearing upon whether or not the idea is true.

QED, mumsy dearest. And if you don't know what "QED" means, you can look it up in that dictionary you love so much. Or perhaps phone a friend? Perhaps that medical dictionary doesn't really describe "confounding factors" or she skipped that section because it was too difficult. There is a reason us "elitists" go to school rather than make all of our professional decisions on a dictionary or on random web sites.

Me, too. That chorus has been severely reduced in recent years, which is a great relief to all but a minority of parents of autistic children. Until you have an autistic child, you will have no idea of how infuriating it is to have someone lying about your child, his condition and his prognosis I did see the hatemongering term "tsunami of autism" the other day - from one of the remainder of what I call the "sewage leak of antivaxxers".

If you could take the hateful emotion out of your presentation, you could move mountains. Come on!!! I mean He is a complete jackleg. An asshat. A moron. Ah, the ever-popular argumentum ad populum! If an idea is popular, it must be correct - right? Or why bleeding and purging worked so well in the 18th and 19th centuries. Please, get over the idea of "the wisdom of the masses".

Only if you don't understand science very well. The anti-vaccinationistas are generally very good at emoting and appearing sincere, not to mention the use of "sciency" terminology much of which is utter nonsense , but actual science? Not so much of that. Here's the argument in a nutshell: the "vaccines-cause-autism" advocates claim that vaccines cause autism despite the fact that no studies have shown a correlation between the two.

That's what negates their argument. This brings us to the issue of vaccine-preventable diseases: since we know what the risks of those are and we also know what the risks of the vaccines are, we can compare the two. When we do that, in something referred to as a "risk-benefit analysis", we see that the benefits of vaccination vastly outweigh the risks of vaccination.

If Ms. Daschel's writings are "well researched", why are they so often usually? Reconcile those two facts, if you can, LJ Goes. Tone trolling - if you don't have any data to support your assertions, try to shut off discussion by complaining about the "tone". Argumentum ad populum again - what "the people" like is not necessarily data, fact or "the truth". In fact, most people prefer a blatant lie they agree with over plain truth that they don't. Having the data on our side is one of the things that help us to feel that we are "right" and gives us the courage to persevere in the face of popular ignorance.

No need to be sorry for us - we knew the job was dangerous when we took it. That noise you heard was the sound of thousands of irony meters all over the world exploding simultaneously from a massive overload. A medical dictionary and a telephone Or is this simply a massive display of naked arrogance? Tone trolling - again! However, I doubt that LJ Goes would be "moved" by the actual science even if it was presented without "hateful emotion".

Call it a hunch. Also note that we only have her word that it is a medical dictionary. I am starting to wonder if it might actually be the Aardvark-to-Zebra kind. Stuff used to make you feel better. Any nonsense fabricated by idiots by extrapolating from the first definition. If I were writing a scientific paper, I would use Apatosaurus, but brontosaurus is a perfectly good English word. I hope, if someone refers to their dog, that you don't feel the need to jump in and insist that they should be writing "My Canis lupus had to go to the vet last week.

She is three. After researching the pros and cons the best I could, I decided not to vaccinate her. I hope that can happen here. My only concern is the health of my daughter and I want to do what is best for her. I just wish there was a clear answer. Re: "Vaccines are safe. The adjuvant used in the vaccine was aluminum hydroxide, which is increasingly being identified as a contributing cause of autoimmune disease and other health problems in immunized populations.

The discovery that the hepatitis B vaccine damages the liver hepatotoxicity confirms earlier findings that the vaccine increases the incidence of liver problems in U. Blood-letting, mercury and aluminium hydroxide as medicine both past and present-day medical practice - now that's pseudoscience. There is a clear answer on vaccines Stick around here and read. Your research to-date has likely included bogus information.

With so much information out there, it's easy to be confused. Science reigns here. I'm not a scientist either. I have 3 children, all fully vaccinated. My anecdote on vaccines vs. In , he was too little yet to get the chicken pox vaccine. It was new back then and there were lots of unvaccinated kids, one of whom got the pox and brought it to my son's daycare. My oldest daughter was also at the same daycare.

She had her chicken pox vaccine. My son caught the pox at six months and suffered terribly for a couple of weeks. You wouldn't think a 6-month-old would have the dexterity to scratch, but he did! He fully recovered, but the marks took several months to finally fade. His sister did not get sick because she was vaccinated. I would never want to see a child that sick and chicken pox is considered a "mild" disease. Imagine if it had been measles or whooping cough.

Katie - as the father of two young boys, both my wife and I had them fully vaccinated. There is a lot of scare-mongering information out there, trying to make vaccines look less safe than they actually are. Your doctor is your ally and you should have the type of relationship with them where they will provide honest answers to your questions. Katie, In many cases there is a clear answer. The chance of having a harmful reaction to, say, the measles vaccine is significantly lower than the chance of a harmful reaction should she get the disease.

You may argue and some have that the chances of getting measles in a Western industrialized country are fairly small and they are certainly much lower than they were before mass immunization. However, as you may have heard there have been pockets of measles infections, primarily where people have decided that the risks of contracting measles are so small that they don't need to immunize.

So yes, you can in many cases choose not to immunize and most likely won't have any problems. This is because the population around you has taken on the risks inherent in immunization for the sake of your daughter. As long as your daughter remains in the minority as one of the unimmunized, her odds of catching one of these diseases is low.

This assumes, of course, that you never travel outside the country and that nobody from outside the country ever travels to your area. Of course, it is likely there are diseases that are endemic to your area which you might want to immunize her against. I personally wouldn't bother vaccinating your daughter against smallpox. The effects of polio can be so devastating that I would recommend the immunization, though the disease is on the wane worldwide.

Exposure to rubella may not harm your daughter, but it may harm your next child. There have been well publicized outbreaks of pertussis, measles, and various other illnesses to say that the odds of catching the disease is non-trivial. You can't control whether she's exposed; you can only control whether she's protected.

The website has some excellent information that is "user friendly" and great links to other sites:. Katie: welcome. There is a lot of information on the internet. Some good, a lot bad. For honest, factual information, there are a lot of places to go. If you aren't medically trained, some of the information may be too "medicalese" for you, just like for me, "statisticese" is a foreign language math and statistics are NOT my forte DEATHS Mortality from childhood diseases were mostly decreasing before mass immunization programs thanks to better medical care - antibiotics, modern sanitation, water treatment, dietary improvements.

Morbidity or, bad outcomes from getting the disease - such as deafness after having mumps, or sterility mostly did not start to decrease until the numbers of infections started to decrease due to immunization. Vaccines DO have some risks. No one here denies that. Currently, the risk of an adverse outcome from a vaccine, almost ANY vaccine, is less than the risk of a adverse outcome from getting the disease.

I'm 50, and have a small pox scar because small pox was still around when I was a child. My 5 years younger sister didn't get the small pox vaccine. My children haven't needed it. Small pox, like many other childhood diseases, only has a human carrier.

Get rid of the disease by enough vaccinations, you can then get rid of the vaccine. We were almost there with polio and measles Many, many studies have looked at children. Vaccines do not make them less healthy, cause autism, ADD, diabetes, etc. While we don't know what causes many of these things, we have been able to again, mostly - science never says "never causes" eliminate vaccines as a cause.

An anecdote: my daughter caught chicken pox at age 5. She was covered from head to toe, with pox in her mouth, throat, vagina. She refused to eat, drink, sit, lie down - she was miserable. I had to give her narcotics for the pain she was in; nothing else touched the agony. I would have gladly had her suffer for a few minutes of a vaccine injection over 3 days of agony more days of pain, but only 3 days we had to give her narcotics for pain. Your daughter is vulnerable. At 3, she plays outside.

She is not protected against tetanus if she happens to suffer an injury that allows tetanus to grow. The treatment is FAR worse, pain wise, risk wise, and with a much higher incidence of death, than getting her vaccinated.

Please, talk to your doctor. If there are reasons NOT to vaccinate, the doctor will say so. If there are no reasons, get your child protected. Both of my kids are fully vaccinated, and I try to stay current with adult vaccinations like influenza, tetanus, and pertussis. I don't want my kids to suffer the way I did with chickenpox, or the way my mother did with measles she had long-term effects.

And I would die of shame if I, or anyone for whom I was responsible, ever spread pertussis to an infant. If you have a son, take a moment to look up "mumps orchitis. There is also a "catch-up" schedule for children who are "missing" one or more vaccines It was used again in to vaccinate select emergency responders, due to increased risk of biological terrorism attacks. I "think" that military personnel are still required to be vaccinated. Another excellent website is www.

Also, I suggest you read a bit more about those diseases as there is a reason vaccines were created so kids can avoid them. Some of the major causes of neurological damage to children from deafness, blindness to severe neurological damage are measles and Hib, and plus to a lesser extent: mumps. If a child passes rubella to a pregnant woman, that baby has a good chance of being born disabled or not living long enough to be born.

Chicken pox does not have as high a chance of causing permanent harm, though it can cause death and disability. But it is cruel to have a child suffer two weeks with open itchy wounds all over their body. Of course, that is a common thing among all of those diseases: they make a child miserable for quite a while.

Pertussis is often called the day cough. Who wants to see a child coughing for three months? Especially since the coughing can be so bad it has caused broken ribs in some people. Measles causes high fevers, and eyes become so sensitive that the room needs to be darkened.

I remember mumps as being very painful, and I was so swollen I could barely open my mouth to take in fluids, much less soup. Weigh the effects of getting a vaccine versus a child suffering through a diseases. And remember there is no such thing as herd immunity for tetanus. If your daughter is three years old she is now at a greater risk of actually catching pertussis, measles and mumps for school and playmates.

One major reason is due to the efforts of Anne Dachel and friends who are happy that herd immunity is going away. Thank you for the link to the article. Having read it, I can say I don't see Ms. Dachel's concerns as quite the earth shattering example of evil ignorance as you depict them. You have a battle of competing authorities in which science, and medical science in particular, seems to be doing an exceptionally poor job of winning. Scientists themselves have created an integrity problem.

Nor do arguments like 'herd immunity'. I had my children vaccinated to protect them, not the herd. I would guess most parents did the same. As for government funding, though you may, I would expect that you would not want to defend the Bush administration's record on science for the public good.

If I had been undecided on whether to choose or reject vaccinating, I surely wouldn't have been convinced by someone willing to go the the mat extolling the virtues of, and the fine science behind big pharma. Frankly, you come off as purely arrogant without the saving benefit of ignorance. Well, of course not. I wasn't really criticing Orac so much as pointing out to everybody that there is no such thing as "Brontosaurus. It's like when people call dromaeosaurs like Velociraptor and Deinonychus "raptors.

I am a creative director, also "smart", but I was once totally in thrall to all things alt-med and that included some very destructive, full-blown conspiracy theories. I was one of the "worried well. You may be like I was; smart, professional and totally crap when it came to critical thinking, letting my fears get the best of me, being "right" and confirmation bias. Now there's a lot of talk about tone, "hatefulness" and what have you and yes, we tend to come off like know-it-alls.

But Katie, many regular commenters here have some formidable scientific education under their belts, not to mention our prolific host who is a cancer researcher, surgeon and is very critical of medicine and pharmaceutical companies when they veer from ethical behavior. This particular article talking about COIs is particularly instructive in critical thinking. Just because someone is "tainted" doesn't automatically make them wrong, and I think you'll find nary a post that attacks people based on personality and tone without there being a solid, scientific basis for the criticism.

The snark is just frosting. So this disembodied strangers advice? Step away from the fear, and use critical thinking and research before someone you love gets hurt. What a smug ignorant troll you are. I am not interested in your politics and I am not interested in your mis understanding of immunology and herd immunity.

How were your children protected from measles before the age of one year? How were they protected from pertussis prior to completing the full four vaccine DTaP series? I would love to hear an explanation that does not involve herd immunity from your family or your community.

Why is it purely arrogant to produce evidence, and to expect evidence for claims that are being made? Who are the "competing authorities"? On one hand, you have actual scientists and on the other, self-proclaimed experts and sleazy, unethical "investigators" pandering to a vulnerable audience. You've created quite a red herring here.

We've known for decades that tobacco is a health hazard due to robust science on the matter, BP was pure corporate greed and not a scientific issue as well as your "Big Coal". You, along with the "people trying to decide" are being swayed by emotional, fact-free arguments from non-authorities due to the lack of understanding of how to evaluate medical issues. I think that public health officials should do a better job of education but the ultimate failure is the arrogance of ignorance that you and your kind display.

You imply that Bush himself oversaw NIH funding of research projects. That's not how it works you know. Pure tone-trolling. This reads to me, "kiss my ass or I won't listen to you". The ignorance is all yours with gems like, "extolling the virtues of, and the fine science behind big pharma. The following are two classic examples of people who never had the opportunity to study Human Immunology Why do you lie all the time about human immunology, Th1Th2? You've lied and lied and lied on almost every thread.

I wasn't vaccinated against anything except smallpox, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis and I think typhus. I'm old! The diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis vaccine was licensed in the mids, so I got that, and my grandmother insisted on the typhus vaccine because we were boating and swimming on a river.

The measles vaccine was introduced in ; the mumps vaccine in ; and the rubella vaccine in I think I had had all three by at the latest. I distinctly remember having the mumps, because I couldn't swallow even my own spit for at least a day. My children were all fully vaccinated my daughter even had the HPV vaccine and my grandchildren are all fully vaccinated. They are all fine and thriving. Because you are hesitant, I'm thinking you might have been visiting websites like the National Vaccine Information Center, SaneVax, and so on.

You need to know that the sites that go on and on about the dangers of vaccines routinely distort and exaggerate the dangers of vaccines and their ingredients. That's all they do: spread fear, uncertainty and doubt FUD about vaccines.

It's not balanced information and it's not reliable. If you have been reading Bob Sears' "Vaccine Book" consider these things: he has no special expertise in the science of vaccines vaccinology or in infection disease. He does, however, have a considerable financial interest in spreading FUD re vaccines.

It sells his book; it earns him speaking fees, and of course, vaccine-fearing parents flock to his medical practice. They have both print and video resources on vaccine safety and specific vaccines. Do come back and ask specific questions, about specific vaccines and vaccine ingredients, if you have them. There are a bunch of pediatricians, family practice docs, and other experts who read this blog.

They can answer your questions. I continue to be impressed by the amount of, dare I say, arrogance displayed by so many in the anti-vaccine camp. They claim that some googling and reading of conspiracy theory sites, some linking of people to other people by 6 degrees of separation or more, a dictionary and a telephone, or even studying fire science somehow makes them experts in the subjects of epidemiology, immunology, or even basic biology.

I am called a meanie because I ask for real documentation for their claims, and I point out that vaccine inserts, news stories and random websites do not count. This was the laugh riot comment I got after explaining that vaccine inserts were not real evidence:. Well, "Chris" is a name that could go both ways. Think "fiance" and "fiancee". I remember the early days of being on here, when "Sid" used to refer to me as a woman. I guess it's better than "Augustine" calling me a racial slur for which he still hasn't apologized, I've noticed.

People who use the internet to frighten others about vaccines are motivated by their beliefs rather than by science: 1. Other advocates who imagine vaccines as the cause of autism and other ills are frequently distraught parents of autistic children who have difficult lives as round-the-clock caregivers of disabled children.

Years ago, severely disabled kids were usually in institutions- also they might have been labelled as 'mentally retarded' rather than autistic- the label change came in , so the "epidemic" may really be a name-change. These parents may attribute the cause of autism to external causes like vaccines rather than genetics as a coping mechanism- believing this helps them to feel better.

Alt med 1. I was not alarmed by the studies that led many to fear vaccines because I had studied developmental neuro- physiology: I told my cousin who had a newborn child not to fear vaccines in I follow alt med websites since I can believe that this is true; you don't seem to understand very well why ad hominem argumentation, such as Ms. Dachel resorts to immediately, is fallacious argumentation. I don't think you have the insight into the mind of "people" that you think you do.

People who never learned critical thinking skills and can't spot this as an excellent example of why ad hominem argumentation leads to false conclusions, perhaps. As regular articles on this blog have reminded us, there are people who, when they read about a child who is endangered by a disease such as leukemia or AIDS will donate generously to try and secure that child's healthy future. If parents can't be motivated to do something that's good for their own children in order to try and secure healthy futures for multiple vulnerable children out there, I think it's because they do not understand the issues, not because they're as selfish as you depict.

Guilt by association? That's what you're resorting to, really? I am no fan of either Bush Sr. It's a wonder you ever managed to make the right decision of vaccinating, when you clearly can't think your way through the issues involved. If advocating vaccines is what you mean by "extolling the virtues of, and the fine science behind big pharma," and it's hard to figure what else that's relevant to the conversation you could mean, then your logic is wholly circular, claiming that to advocate for vaccines with credibility you have to not advocate for vaccines.

Then I suppose you will be pleased with yourself to know that you come across as being more than adequately supplied in both respects, and not just the one. Not bad. In my experience, there is a lot of misinformation out there. The good information is not convincing though. I am interested in knowing what is the chance my daughter will contract a disease and if she does what are the chances the symptoms will be mild, moderate, severe or fatal.

Ideally taking into account as many variables as possible, inluding medical history, social and environmental factors including herd immunity and outbreaks. Then I would like to know the chances of a negative side effect including severity levels. It would be wonderful if there was a computer to do the analysis say every hour giving new results based on changing variables.

Chris: This is why I have the Thing in my killfile. That comment made no sense whatsoever, and I got tired of reading the droolings. Katie: I think we would ALL love that. But, this is the real world, and, as parents, we have to make the best decisions we can to protect our children.

No one can predict how bad symptoms will be. My younger daughter had a very light case of chicken pox while her older sister, as noted in my comment above, had a horrible case. At the same time, one of their classmates ended up hospitalized with an infection from the pox and nearly died. All middle class, healthy children, with no risk factors. Going back further, when mumps went around, my brother had a mild case, I didn't catch them, and our friend who we played with all the time again, all healthy middle class children was so ill she was out of school for 2 weeks because she couldn't eat or drink.

I'm very glad my kids didn't have to deal with the multiple lost school days as all the illnesses went around, or the misery of being that ill. When I was a child, I can recall chicken pox going around, and having only 5 of my classmates IN school because everyone else was out sick until I got it - chicken pox goes in waves - so I was out while others trickled back.

But I had, like most kids those days, a stay-at-home mom, so while having one of us sick for a week x 3 as the pox spread through the house - each of us was out a week was not great, it wasn't too inconvenient. These days, with both parents working, having to be off work for 3 weeks with sick children is too great a financial burden.

And recall - quarantine for most childhood illnesses needs to be done, so if your child is exposed to, say, chicken pox, you have 21 days before you know if she will get it or not. Can you delay a vacation for those 21 days? You can't, in all good conscience, take your child out where she might expose immunologically depressed children to chicken pox.

So, you have to stay at home with her until she either gets it or the 21 days pass. Can you afford to do that? Many parents can't and many don't bother - leading to more exposure. Again, I write a long response, nice and polite, and it goes into moderation. I really think Sciblogs hates me One cannot predict the outcome for one person, because there are too many variables.

It is too complicated for any computer and I have done some crazy analyses on computers, they are only as good as the humans who program and collect the data. All you can do is to look at historical data to see how populations have been affected. There are also several studies available at PubMed on the historical effect of diseases, both before the vaccines and when vaccination declined use words like "measles" and "history" and then on the right side of the page choose "free articles".

Though if you really want a definitive answer you are going to have to invent a device that predicts the future, a crystal ball that actually works. Or just make sure your daughter never leaves the house and does not go out into the community. And neither of those options are realistic. One realistic thing is to check your county's health department, which may or may not have notices on reportable diseases.

My county has a monthly Epi-Log which lists how many reports have been posted for certain diseases. It also includes articles, the latest is about the surge of pertussis. I am sorry, but it is just a matter of probability and statistics, much like a game of dice. You take a gamble every time you get into a moving vehicle that it will not get into an accident.

You can reduce the risk by obeying traffic laws and being in a vehicle with good safety equipment. You take the same gamble with infectious diseases. Every time you take a breath, eat some food, touch a surface or drink some water you are taking in microbes.

Most of them are benign, but sometimes they are not. You can reduce your risk by training your immune system with a vaccine, all of them are safer than the diseases. It is up to you how you gamble with your daughter's health. That quote was from another blog, ShotOfPrevention, where there are a whole other type of troll like behavior.

That particular "gentleman" once declared there were no vaccines for bacterial diseases. No they haven't. They've been forced to by your preciouse government. Wake up and smell the reality. You must not understand that there are people who have more than one child. Perhaps in your fantasy land the five year old sibling can get himself to kindergarten, music class and soccer game. Or that no child leaves the house until the youngest is at least a year old, and all groceries are provided by a magic fairy.

Or that some women with children need to go to work to pay the bills. Like my sister when her loser husband left her because he did not like doing the "dad thing. My daughter also had chicken pox when she was six months old from her older brother. I was not working, due to the medical issues of my oldest son some due to getting a now vaccine preventable disease. Amazing a feeding frenzy to get this person to vax her kid.

It's like someone tossed chum into shark infested waters. You guys are truly sick. DEATHS Mortality from childhood diseases were mostly decreasing before mass immunization programs thanks to better medical care. Your child's chance of catching a mild illness are tiny.

That's four per state. Besides why would anyone think sites named "immunize" would offer unbiased info. And gov sites? Even sillier. They are in the vaccination business. Everyone truly informed knows that autism, diabetes, seizure disorders, life-threatening allergies and asthma are the result of chemtrails and nano particles.

Not vaccines. Insiders also know that anti-vax groups are dupes to the evil masterminds who are using nano particles and chemtrails to get their way. You can't base your decision on what others do. Daycare at a young age simply alters the risk reward ratio.

There's no reason for parents to expect the same risk when they have infants at home. The risk of infection there is simply lower. Others who place their infants in a daycare situation have higher risks than those who do not.

As such the vaccination equation differs. Oh, really? How much money does the government make from vaccines, Bob? Give us something you haven't and show us some facts. Please, enlighten us to the hoards of cash raked in by the big bad voodoo government officials who want to give kids autism, as you think.

And don't say you don't think that. Your association with Generation Rescue and AoA speaks very loudly of your fears. Ren, the gov is made up of people. Are there not people working in the "vaccinate your baby" biz? The CDC is now even giving advice on how to throw a Superbowl party. Talk about mission creep. The people who work that "biz", as you call it, are public health professionals who care about eradicating diseases and keeping people safe.

Trust me, they're not in it for the money. Any nurse working public health could make three to four times the money benefits included if they worked at a doctor's office or hospital. So you are advising against taking to your pediatrician about vaccines because they are ill-informed about the subject and you suggest they seek out vaccinologist?

Some people enjoy feeling important and telling others what to do even more than making money - especially when they don't know how to make money. I've seen you use the following argument several times on this blogs other posts if you need I'll dig them up :. Do you know why a serious outbreak is only a small number of cases?

It isn't because measles is not infectious, but that much of the population is immune. This limits spread of measles. What exactly do you think will happen if everyone follows your advice and stops getting their children vaccinated? The number of measles cases will likely go as immunity goes down.

This has all been explained to you before. When you make this sort of argument you forget that the number of cases is not fixed, but will vary as some function of the percentage of the population. Your child might not get sick, but what about your childs' child or if your child once older gets measles later in life because there is not longer enough people with immunity?

I know it is a gamble. I'm trying to get information on the odds so I can make the best bet I can. My state department of public health does list reports of some diseases by county. There has been one reported case of measels, a handfull of pertussis, not in my county. What is the best way I can use this data to calculate the odds? Have you ever heard of a revolving door between government agency and corporations?

Why don't you watch this 60 minutes expose called "Under the Influence" and then get back to the lurkers and rationalize your position. You're a good government pawn, Ren. They taught you what and how to think very well. You have absorbed the philosphy well. Kudos to you. Too bad you can't see it. In economics, regulatory capture occurs when a state regulatory agency created to act in the public interest instead advances the commercial or special interests that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.

Regulatory capture is a form of government failure, as it can act as an encouragement for large firms to produce negative externalities. The agencies are called "captured agencies". Don't you see that they must capture the government, in order not to be restrained too much by it? Must capture the government? They have already captured it. Yes, I understand the technical definition of epidemic.

But I don't understand your side's fascination with the whole "what if everyone did" argument. I chose not to vaccinate in and amazingly the entire country did NOT follow my lead. If the measles comes back people will be about as worried about it as they were in the sixties.

Should sporadic cases reemerge, they will have the option to vaccinate as they see fit. I can't tell you exactly the best method of how to calculate the odds off the top of my head. It is complicated. Populations change. Will your child ever leave your county?

Will she travel abroad? What will the immunity status of the population be in N years in the future? That is to say, very worried, particularly if they had young children. It upright is what it is. Sole would harden salary check in spite of those hunting salubriousness cover subsidies controlled by the natural law.

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